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Ecumenism is the Universal Solvent of Tradition .

Raider Fan won't shut up but he will he put up (5)

h/t Maurice Pinay Blog.  




 The Talmud and Deicide. Traditional Rabbis admit the Messias-Deniers, The Jews, are the ones responsible for the worst crime in history than which no other worse crime can even be imagined.

No commentary necessary other than to note the source - The American Jewish Committee

Jesus in the Talmud

September 24, 2003  Steven Bayme, National Director, Contemporary Jewish Life Department  


The recent controversy over the forthcoming release of Mel Gibson's The Passion has reignited the longstanding debate over responsibility for the crucifixion of Jesus. This 2,000-year-old debate clearly has been a costly one for Jews. Statements attributed by the Gospels to Jewish leaders of the first century urging that Jesus be crucified and that responsibility for the act be laid at the hands of the Jewish people for all time form the basis for the charge of deicide against the Jews. More tellingly, historians have argued correctly that this "teaching of contempt," casting the Jews as a permanently accursed people, often served to legitimate violence against Jews as the living embodiment of those who killed Jesus.

In the mid-1960s, the Vatican II Council was meant to relegate this teaching of contempt to the history books. The Church released a statement claiming that "what happened in His passion can not be blamed upon all the Jews then living, without distinction, nor upon the Jews of today". Precisely with the leadership of groups such as the American Jewish Committee, remarkable progress in Catholic/Jewish relations has since been attained, especially concerning the portrayal of Jews and Judaism within Catholic textbooks. Gibson's movie, intended to tell the story of the Gospels, has alienated many Jewish leaders, who correctly worry whether the movie's graphic description of the crucifixion and its alleged overtones of a Jewish conspiracy to kill Jesus may ignite long-dormant Christian hostilities to Jews.

For this reason, the account of the Gospels, and its associations with anti-Semitism, needs to be honestly confronted, including the question of the relationship of church teachings to acts of violence against Jews. Yet it is also important that Jews confront their own tradition and ask how Jewish sources treated the Jesus narrative. Pointedly, Jews did not argue that crucifixion was a Roman punishment and therefore no Jewish court could have advocated it. Consider, by contrast, the following text from the Talmud: 

On the eve of Passover Jesus was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of Passover. Ulla retorted: Do you suppose he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a mesith (enticer), concerning whom Scripture says, "Neither shall thou spare nor shall thou conceal him?" With Jesus, however, it was different, for he was connected with the government.  (Sanhedrin 43a)

This text, long censored in editions of the Talmud, is concerned primarily with due process in capital crimes. Standard process requires that punishment be delayed for forty days in order to allow extenuating evidence to be presented. However, in extreme cases, such as seducing Israel into apostasy, this requirement is waived. The case of Jesus, according to the Talmud, constituted an exception to this rule. Although one who enticed Israel into apostasy is considered an extreme case, the Jews at the time waited forty days because of the close ties of Jesus to the Roman authorities. However, once the forty days elapsed without the presentation of favorable or extenuating comment about him, they proceeded to kill him on the eve of Passover.

Three themes emanate from this passage. First, the charges against Jesus relate to seduction of Israel into apostasy and the practice of sorcery. According to the Gospels, the charges against Jesus concerned his self-proclamation as a messiah. The Talmud seems to prefer the more specific charges of practicing sorcery and leading Israel into false beliefs. One twentieth-century historian, Morton Smith of Columbia University, argued on the basis of recently discovered "hidden Gospels" that the historical Jesus indeed was a first-century sorcerer (Jesus the Magician, HarperCollins, 1978). In the eyes of the Talmudic rabbis, the practice of sorcery and false prophecy constituted capital crimes specifically proscribed in Deuteronomy 18: 10-12 and 13: 2-6.

Second, the Talmud is here offering a subtle commentary upon Jesus' political connections. The Gospels portray the Roman governor Pontius Pilate as going to great lengths to spare Jesus (Mark 15: 6-15). Although this passage may well have been written to appease the Roman authorities and blame the Jews, the Talmudic passage points in the same direction: The Jews waited forty days, in a departure from the usual practice, only because Jesus was close to the ruling authorities.

Lastly, the passage suggests rabbinic willingness to take responsibility for the execution of Jesus. No effort is made to pin his death upon the Romans. In all likelihood, the passage in question emanates from fourth-century Babylon, then the center of Talmudic scholarship, and beyond the reach of both Rome and Christianity. Although several hundred years had elapsed since the lifetime of Jesus, and therefore this is not at all a contemporary source, the Talmudic passage indicates rabbinic willingness to acknowledge, at least in principle, that in a Jewish court and in a Jewish land, a real-life Jesus would indeed have been executed.

To be sure, historians can not accept such a text uncritically. For one thing, the Talmudic text, as noted, was written some 300 years after the event it reports. Secondly, it makes no acknowledgement of intra-Jewish tensions in first century Palestine in which Jewish sects proliferated, and Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots competed for Jewish allegiances. Jesus's antipathy towards the Pharisees, of course, is well known from the Gospels, and the Talmudic rabbis, who presumably read these accounts, defined themselves as the intellectual heirs of the Pharisaic teachers. By contrast, the High Priest was, in all likelihood, a member of the Sadducee faction, which generally consisted of more aristocratic elements. What the Talmudic narrative does demonstrate is fourth century rabbinic willingness to take responsibility for the execution of Jesus.

What, then, are the implications of this reading of Jesus through the eyes of rabbinic sources? First, we do require honesty on both sides in confronting history. Jewish apologetics that "we could not have done it" because of Roman sovereignty ring hollow when one examines the Talmudic account. However, the significance of Vatican II, conversely, should by no means be minimized. The Church went on record as abandoning the teaching of contempt in favor of historicizing the accounts of the Gospels and removing their applicability to Jews of later generations. A mature Jewish-Christian relationship presupposes the ability of both sides to face up to history, acknowledge errors that have been committed, and build a social contract in which each side can both critique as well as assign value to its religious counterpart.

Bibliography for further reading:
Steven Bayme, Understanding Jewish History (KTAV), 1997
Joseph Klausner, Jesus of Nazareth (Beacon Books), 1964
R. Travers-Herford, Christianity in Talmud and Midrash (KTAV), 1975
Questions for further discussion:
Given the climate in first-century Palestine, what threat did Jesus pose to Jews and to Rome?
How should Jews understand Jesus today?
What should be the terms of a social contract between believing Jews and Christians? How should adherents of each faith view the other?




Raider Fan won't shut up but he will he put up (4)

While ABE Ministry continues to lament the sudden and, frankly, catastrophic, abdication of Raider Fan - what possible evil could have taken possession of such a one that he would abdicate the Chair of ABE Ministry ?- nevertheless, we must find a way to carry on.

In any event, we are fortunate to have Amateur Brain Surgeon, who has, generously and graciously, taken on the happy duty of trying to complete Raider Fan's captious claims that, once, were mundane in the Catholic Weltanschauung but have since been dissolved in the Sea of Ecumenical madness and so we would all do well to bear in mind Raider Fan's atavistic aphorism; Ecumenism is the Universal Solvent of Tradition.

Thank you, ABE Ministry; today, ABS will simply post some passages from Holy Writ (they are in all of the better bibles) but Catholic man will not hear them referenced or commented upon by the Prelature for they have taken the decision to speak only of God's Blessings of the Covenants as they pertain to the Jews while they routinely refuse to speak about the Curses that were promised by God to fall upon the Messias-Deniers.

Back in the Piemonte region of Vermont, the old timers called such an approach to truth, half-assed.

Let's simply let the Bible Speak (see, ABS can get all ecumenical sounding too)



Baruch 1:20
And many evils have cleaved to us, and the curses which the Lord foretold by Moses his servant: who brought our fathers out of the land of Egypt, to give us a land flowing with milk and honey, as at this day.

Deuteronomy 28:15

But if thou wilt not hear the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep and to do all his commandments and ceremonies ceremonies, which I command thee this day, all these curses  shall come upon thee, and overtake thee.

Deuteronomy 28:45        

And all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue and overtake thee, till thou perish: because thou heardst not the voice of the Lord thy God, and didst not keep his commandments and ceremonies which he commanded thee.


Deuteronomy 28
Because you did not serve the Lord your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, because of the abundance of all things, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you.



Deuteronomy 30:19 
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse.
Malachias (Malachi) 2:2
If you will not hear, and if you will not lay it to heart, to give glory to my name, saith the Lord of hosts: I will send poverty upon you, and will curse your blessings  yea I will curse them, because you have not laid it to heart.

Mark 7:9-13
And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)— then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.

Some background reading that will scandalise those who are not Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Traditionalists.

Now, the intent of ABS is not to scandalise but parade before people some ignored facts that can not be spoken about if Ecumenism and our political rapprochement with the Messias-Deniers is to continue.

Make no mistake about it. IF The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, once again, begins to teach the fullness of its truth as is required of it (See The Church of Christ by E. Sylvester Berry STD; page 52 "Unity of Doctrine" ...She cannot teach contradictory doctrines in different places or at different times; she cannot even teach a part of her doctrines in one place or in one age, and another part in another place or another age, She must teach all truths at all times and in all places, then the game is over.

Bye, bye happy meetings during which we abandon and castigate Tradition and orthodox Ecclesiastical Praxis so the Messias-Deniers will like us.

One crucial question for Catholic man is what is more important, truth or putative peace on earth?











Raider Fan won't shut up but he will he put up (3)

Following Raider Fan's still stunning abdication of the Chair of ABE Ministry, we have convinced Amateur Brain Surgeon to continue until completion of his (R.F's) contentious examination of this important problem vis a vis the Holocaust and our relationship with Jews in general.

Amateur Brain Surgeon has communicated to ABE Ministry that, as usual,  he really has no particular plan, say nothing about a plan that is well thought out, but he will see this through to some end by just sort of winging-it until he loses his opponents in the clouds or blindly slams into some substantial obstacle.

Take it away, Amateur Brain Surgeon....

Those of us blessed to live during the time of this execrable ecclesiastical epoch have become inured to members of our Hierarchy bowing and scraping before our enemies and confessing to them that their political categories have supplanted Divine Truth.

There can be no doubt that we at ABE Ministry are amongst a tiny minority but even those who populate UI (Ultramontane Inc) in its novel form of accepting in its entirety modernist positivism (severed as it is from Tradition) must occasionally become embarrassed by claims that the WWII war crimes committed against the Jews were the greatest evil ever and/or the worst crime ever:

http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2014/may/documents/papa-francesco_20140526_terra-santa-memoriale-yad-vashem.html

http://www.berkshireeagle.com/ci_11772961

No, you are both wildly wrong and you give scandal to faithful Catholics. You both ought be ashamed for it is literally impossible to even imagine a worse crime than Deicide and yet here we have a Pope and a Prince of the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church publicly teaching that what happened to the Jews during WWII is worse than the Holocaust of Christ on Calvary.

But, for the moment at least, we will leave that behind us for we have already answered that indefensible claim.

Now, Raider Fan would like to address a common error that he sees ceaselessly repeated- that the Jews are God's chosen people.

The Messias-Deniers, the Jews, are no longer the chosen people of God

http://romancatholicism.org/accursed-race.html

rather, the faithful members of The Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church is, for it is the New Israel, and Rome is the Capitol of this new nation/Israel for those blessed to have been called into His One True Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Rome is our Capitol and we Roman Catholics are the chosen people of God.

Thus, our first Pope:  1st Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people, that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his admirable light.

Because this is Amateur Brain Surgeon's first full day reigning in the Chair of ABE Ministry, he will not be spending too much time reining-in the indefensible claims of those in the prelature; no, he will be compiling some more quotes from his sound sources that will be most likely to make his opponents yirn while yearning for the winds of the old days of the Vatican Two revolution to blow through their rapidly thinning modernist hair, for, make no mistake about it, when we think about the modern prelature and its relationship to the Jews, we are solidly in the quicksand of prudential papal politics whereas we Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church faithful require solid Doctrinal ground beneath our feet if we are to faithfully follow the Messias rather than kowtow to the Messias-Deniers.

ABS is the same age as Israel and the One Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church he was born into is now Invisibilium; yes, Virginia, things have changed and gainsaying that obvious reality is of no use to any soul:





Following a stunning abdication, Amateur Brain Surgeon has been restored to his inane reign.

ABE Ministry was as shocked as anyone when news of Raider Fan's abdication was announced this afternoon but we were pleased we were able to talk Amateur Brain Surgeon out of retirement.

About Raider Fan there is little to be said other than to observe he was an aspiring-to-middle-brow-status atavist who fell far short of his goals and we wish him a rapid descent into oblivion.

About Amateur Brian Surgeon, we at ABE Ministry are something other than excited about his unexpected willingness to come out of retirement and, knowing him as well as we do, we are confident that while his efforts may be strenuous, we are confident those efforts will result in his usual crummy standards not being met.

So welcome back ABS, ya bastid....

O, and once ABS finishes the there-is-only-one-Holocaust-deserving-of-that-name project begun by Raider Fan, he has agreed to sit for an interview.

Maybe he can explain to the nine readers of this crummy blog why Raider Fan would have abdicated the Chair of ABE Ministry at such a captious moment in salvation history.


Raider Fan won't shut up but he will he put up (2)

Old Covenant kaput;

Moses tore them from their godless polytheism, he led them back to God, the Creator of all things; he drew them up as it were from an abyss of evil, but it was natural for him to build first this step of holiness 
at the threshold and entrance of the Temple of the more Perfect. 

Therefore he forbade them to murder, to commit adultery, to steal, to swear falsely, to work uncleanness, to lie with mother, sister or daughter, to do many actions which till then they had done without restraint. 

He rescued them from their wild and savage life, and gave them a polity based on better reason and good law as the times went, and was the first lawgiver to codify his enactments in writing,a practice which was not yet known to all men. He dealt with them as imperfect, and when he forbade idolatry, he commanded them to worship the One Omnipotent God by sacrifices and bodily ceremonies. He enacted that they should conduct by certain mystic symbols the ritual that he
ordained, which the Holy Spirit taught him in a wonderful way was only to be temporary :

He drew a circle round one place and forbade them to celebrate his ordinances anywhere, except in one place alone, namely the Temple in Jerusalem, and never outside it. And to this day it is forbidden for the children of the Hebrews outside the boundaries of their ruined mother-city to sacrifice according to the law, to build a temple or an altar, to anoint kings or priests, to celebrate the Mosaic gatherings and feasts,- to be cleansed from pollution, to be loosed from offences, to bear gifts to God, or to propitiate Him according to the legal requirements.

And therefore, of course, they have fallen under Moses' curse, attempting to keep it in part, but breaking it in the whole, as Moses makes absolutely clear :

 "Accursed is he, who does not continue in all the 26. things written in this law, to do them."

And they have come to this, although Moses himself foresaw by the Holy Spirit, that, when the new covenant was revived by Christ and preached to all nations, his own legislation would become superfluous, he rightly confined its influence to one place, so that if they were ever deprived of it, and shut out of their national freedom, it might not be possible for them to carry out the ordinances of his law in a foreign country, and as of necessity they would have to receive the new covenant announced by Christ. 

Moses had foretold this very thing, and in due course Christ sojourned in this life, and the teaching of the new covenant was borne to all nations, and at once the Romans besieged Jerusalem, and destroyed it and the Temple there. 

At once the whole of the Mosaic law was abolished, with all that remained of the old covenant, and the curse passed over to those who became lawbreakers, because they obeyed Moses' law, when its time had gone by, and still clung ardently to it, for at that very moment the perfect teaching of the new Law was introduced in its place. And, therefore, our Lord and Saviour rightly says to those who suppose  that God ought only to be worshipped in Jerusalem, or in certain mountains, or some definite places :

" I. The hour cometh and now is, when the true  worshippers shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father. For God is a Spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." 

So He said, and presently, not long after, Jerusalem was  besieged, the holy place and the altar by it and the worship conducted according to Moses' ordinances were destroyed, and the archetypal holiness of the pre-Mosaic men of God reappeared. And the blessing assured thereby to all nations came, to lead those who came to it from the first step and  from the first elements of the Mosaic worship to a better and more perfect life.- Yes, the religion of those blessed and  godly men, who did not worship in any one place exclusively, neither by symbols nor types, but as our Lord and Saviour equires "in spirit and in truth,'' by our Saviour's appearance became the possession of all the nations, as the prophets of old foresaw. For Zephaniah says the very same thing :

" The Lord shall appear against them, and shall utterly destroy all the gods of the nations of the earth. 

(Also adduced there are more reasons why the Jews are cursed and why we reject their way of life etc etc)

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/eusebius_de_03_book1.htm


Jesus is the Pluperfect Sacrifice and one True Holocaust and His Divine Charity replaced the material fire and His Holy Holocaust infinitely surpasses all the religious and pagan types of holocaust that preceded it and it alone, The Holocaust on Calvary, is deserving of the name Holocaust.

Period.



The sacrifices of the law were far inferior to that of Christ.

Hebrews 9

1 The former (covenant) indeed had ordinances of worship, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 *For the first tabernacle was made, wherein were the candlesticks, and the table, and the setting forth of loaves, which is called the holy.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle, which is called the holy of holies:
4 Having a golden *censer, and the ark of the covenant covered about on every part with gold, in which was the golden urn that had the manna, and the rod of Aaron that had blossomed, and the *tables of the testament.
5 And over it were the cherubims of glory overshadowing the propitiatory: of which it is not needful to speak now particularly.
6 Now these things being thus ordered: into the first tabernacle the priests indeed always entered, accomplishing the rites of the sacrifices:
7 But into the second, the high priest alone, *once a year; not without blood, which he offereth for his own, and the people's ignorance:
8 The Holy Ghost signifying this, that the way of the holies was not yet made manifest, whilst the former tabernacle was yet standing.
9 Which is a parable of the time then present: according to which gifts and sacrifices are offered, which cannot, as to the conscience, make him perfect that serveth only in meats and in drinks,
10 And divers washings, and carnal ordinances, enjoined until the time of correction.
11 But Christ coming, a high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is, not of this creation:
12 Neither by the blood of goats, or of calves, but by his own blood, entered once into the sanctuary, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 *For if the blood of goats and of oxen, and the ashes of a heifer, being sprinkled, sanctify such as are defiled, to the cleansing of the flesh:
14 *How much more shall the blood of Christ, who, through the Holy Ghost, offered himself without spot to God, cleanse our conscience from dead works, to serve the living God?
15 And, therefore, he is the mediator of the new testament: *that by means of his death, for the redemption of those transgressions, which were under the former testament, they who are called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where there is a testament, the death of the testator must of necessity intervene.
17 For a testament is of force, after men are dead: otherwise it is not yet of force, whilst the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither was the first indeed dedicated without blood.
19 For when every commandment of the law had been read by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
20 Saying: *This is the blood of the testament, which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 The tabernacle also and all the vessels of the ministry, in like manner, he sprinkled with blood.
22 And almost all things, according to the law, are cleansed with blood: and without the shedding of blood, there is no remission.
23 It is necessary, therefore, that the patterns of heavenly things should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Jesus hath not entered into the holies made with hands, the patterns of the true: but into heaven itself, that he may appear now in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holies every year with the blood of others:
26 For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men once to die, and after this the judgment:
28 *So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; the second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation.


The holocausts of the Old Law foreshadowed the great and perfect sacrifice which Jesus, the High Priest of the New Law and the true Lamb was to offer in fulfillment of all the bloody sacrifices of the first covenant




http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07396b.htm




Raider Fan won't shut up but he will put up (1)



Regicide is always revolution reified;
Deicide was Satan by Jews Glorified


It is possible for a country, France, to suffer a revolution and commit Regicide and yet still be able to recover much of its tradition at some point in its future but a country, Israel, which commits Deicide has committed national suicide and can never recover even the tiniest portion of its tradition; it's only hope is to corporately confess that Jesus is the Messias and convert to Catholicism, the new Israel.


While France could restore its glory by restoring its Catholic Monarchy, Israel will perpetually serve only Satan since it has committed Deicide; no matter what it does, it is a forever dead nation; sure, ghosts of its past will haunt humanity in the Middle East and in these last days its political establishment was a necessary precondition before the first signs of the Eschatological events we are promised begin to be experienced while also  signaling, to those who have eyes that can see, that the Advent of the Anti Christ is nigh, but he, a Jew, can offer the Jews only delusion, destruction, and death. 


With that essential subtext established, Raider Fan desires to move on and to address a write-back he left on the Blog of one of his heroes, Pertinacious Papist, in response to a quote from our Pope and which response can be read here:


http://pblosser.blogspot.com/2015/06/pope-says-weapons-manufacturers-cant.html


Raider Fan reproduces his captious claim here because such a claim is acutely at odds with the modern Catholic Weltanschauung and because such a claim is, necessarily, based on sources he discovered as a traditionalist autodidact and not anchored, as some may think, in his hatred of Jews.


Also, it seems reasonable that others would ask just where does Raider Fan think he gets off writing such claims?


Well, he gets off modernism and onto Tradition is what has been going on and he will show his sources, but, first, the write-back in question:




The Pope mentions the putative holocaust which is no such thing. There is only ONE Holocaust deserving of that designation if language and truth are to exist in reality and the LAST thing one will ever hear is a modern Pope condemning the real Holocaust for there would be hell to pay for doing that and so we Catholics are constrained to hear them, repeatedly, speak about that which superseded the one true real Holocaust.



Basta!!!




Real men know that there is one, and only one, Holocaust and that one Holocaust is the self-sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary where His burning charity substituted for the material fire that were part of all of the Old Testament holocausts (types) that presaged Jesus and prepared His chosen people (previously the Jews, now we Catholics, the New Israel) for the one true Holocaust.




The war crimes of the Nazis committed against their enemies - Christians, Jews, Sodomites, Gypsies -was not a holocaust because they were not burnt offerings dedicated to God as worship.




Popes speak about that which superseded the one true Holocaust as if that was the greatest crime ever whereas Deicide is not only the worst crime ever committed, it is the worst crime imaginable. Period.




Now, it is quite true that for the racial supremacists, the Jews, that which we Catholics have allowed to supersede the one true Holocaust is indeed the worst crime imaginable for them.




An enemy has cultivated the minds of Our Hierarchy and the fruit being borne is the repeated reference to that which has superseded the one true holocaust and their abject failure to teach their flock about the one true Holocaust.




Other than that thing are just ducky


Sources used by Raider Fan



  1. Origin of deicide
    Ecclesiastical Late Latin deicida ; from Classical Latin deus, god + caedere, to kill: see -cide
    the killer of a god
  2. Origin of deicide
    < L deus, god + -cide
    the killing of a god


Saint Thomas Aquinas - Summa


Article 6. Whether the sin of those who crucified Christ was most grievous?

Objection 1. It would seem that the sin of Christ's crucifiers was not the most grievous. Because the sin which has some excuse cannot be most grievous. But our Lord Himself excused the sin of His crucifiers when He said: "Father, forgive them: for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34). Therefore theirs was not the most grievous sin.

Objection 2. Further, our Lord said to Pilate (John 19:11): "He that hath delivered Me to thee hath the greater sin." But it was Pilate who caused Christ to be crucified by his minions. Therefore the sin of Judas the traitor seems to be greater than that of those who crucified Him.

Objection 3. Further, according to the Philosopher (Ethic. v): "No one suffers injustice willingly"; and in the same place he adds: "Where no one suffers injustice, nobody works injustice." Consequently nobody wreaks injustice upon a willing subject. But Christ suffered willingly, as was shown above (1,2). Therefore those who crucified Christ did Him no injustice; and hence their sin was not the most grievous.

On the contrary, Chrysostom, commenting on the words, "Fill ye up, then, the measure of your fathers" (Matthew 23:32), says: "In very truth they exceeded the measure of their fathers; for these latter slew men, but they crucified God."

I answer that, As stated above (Article 5), the rulers of the Jews knew that He was the Christ: and if there was any ignorance in them, it was affected ignorance, which could not excuse them. Therefore their sin was the most grievous, both on account of the kind of sin, as well as from the malice of their will. The Jews also of the common order sinned most grievously as to the kind of their sin: yet in one respect their crime was lessened by reason of their ignorance. Hence Bedecommenting on Luke 23:34, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," says: "He prays for them who know not what they are doing, as having the zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." But the sin of the Gentiles, by whose hands He was crucified, was much more excusable, since they had no knowledge of the Law.

Reply to Objection 1. As stated above, the excuse made by our Lord is not to be referred to the rulers among the Jews, but to the common people.

Reply to Objection 2. Judas did not deliver up Christ to Pilate, but to the chief priests who gave Him up to Pilate, according to John 18:35: "Thy own nation and the chief priests have delivered Thee up to me." But the sin of all these was greater than that of Pilate, who slewChrist from fear of Caesar; and even greater than the sin of the soldiers who crucified Him at the governor's bidding, not out of cupidity like Judas, nor from envy and hate like the chief priests.

Reply to Objection 3. Christ, indeed willed His Passion just as the Father willed it; yet He did not will the unjust action of the Jews. Consequently Christ's slayers are not excused of their injustice. Nevertheless, whoever slays a man not only does a wrong to the one slain, but likewise to God and to the State; just as he who kills himself, as the Philosopher says (Ethic. v). Hence it was that David condemned to death the man who "did not fear to lay hands upon the Lord's anointed," even though he (Saul) had requested it, as related in 2 Samuel 1:5-14.


Horrific punishment for Deicide

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm


Pilate saith unto them, “What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ?” They all say unto him, “Let him be crucified.”
23. And the governor said, “Why, what evil bath [p. 940] he done?” But they cried out the more, saying, “Let him be crucified.”
  1. When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just person; see ye to it.”
    Then answered all the people, and said, “His blood be on us, and on our children.
    Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

Catena Aurea


Chrys.: But none of the foregoing things moved Christ’s enemies, because envy had altogether blinded them, and of their own wickedness they corrupt the people, for they “persuaded the people that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.”

Origen: Thus it is plainly seen how the Jewish people is moved by its elders and the doctors of the Jewish system, and stirred up against Jesus to destroy Him.

Gloss., non occ.: Pilate is said to make this answer, “Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you?” either to the message of his wife, or the petition of the people, with whom it was a custom to ask such release on the feast-day.

Origen: But the populace, like wild beasts that rage the open plains, would have Barabbas released to them. For this people had seditions, murders, robberies, practised by some of their own nation in act, and nourished by all of them who believe not in Jesus, inwardly in their mind. Where Jesus is not, there are strifes and fightings; where He is, there is peace and all good things. All those who are like the Jews either in doctrine or life desire Barabbas to be loosed to them; for whoso does evil, Barabbas is loosed in his body, and Jesus bound; but he that does good has Christ loosed, and Barabbas bound.

Pilate sought to strike them with shame for so great injustice, “What shall I do then with Jesus that is called Christ?” And not that only, but desiring to fill up the measure of their guilt. But neither do they blush that Pilate confessed Jesus to be the Christ, nor set any bounds to their impiety, They all say unto him, “Let him be crucified.” Thus they multiplied the sum of their wickedness, not only asking the life of a murderer, but the death of a righteous man, and that the shameful death of the cross.

Raban.: Those who were crucified being suspended on a cross, by nails driven into the wood through their hands and feet, perished by a lingering death, and lived long on the cross, not that they sought longer life, but that death was deferred to prolong their sufferings. The Jews indeed contrived this as the worst of deaths, but it had been chosen by the Lord without their privity, thereafter to place upon the foreheads of the faithful the same cross as a [p. 943] trophy of His victory over the Devil.

Jerome: Yet even after this answer of theirs, Pilate did not at once assent, but in accordance with his wife’s suggestion, “Have thou nothing to do with that just man,” he answered, “Why, what evil hath he done?” This speech of Pilate’s acquits Jesus. “But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified;” that it might be fulfilled which is said in the Psalm, “Many dogs have compassed me, the congregation of the wicked hath inclosed me;” [Ps 22:16] and also that of Hieremias, “Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest, they have given forth their voice against me.” [Jer 12:8]

Aug., de Cons. Ev., iii, 8: Pilate many times pleaded with the Jews, desiring that Jesus might be released, which Matthew witnesses in very few words, when he says, “Pilate seeing that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made.” He would not have spoken thus, if Pilate had not striven much, though how many efforts he made to release Jesus he does not mention.

Remig.: It was customary among the ancients, when one would refuse to participate in any crime, to take water and wash his hands before the people.

Jerome: Pilate took water in accordance with that, “I Will wash my hands in innocency,” [Ps 26:6] in a manner testifying and saying, I indeed have sought to deliver this innocent man, but since a tumult is rising, and the charge of treason to Caesar is urged against me, I am innocent of the blood of this just man. The judge then who is thus compelled to give sentence against the Lord, does not convict the accused, but the accusers, pronouncing innocent Him who is to be crucified.
See ye to it,” as though be had said, I am the law’s minister, it is your voice that has shed this blood. Then answered all the people and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.” This imprecation rests at the present day upon the Jews, the Lord’s blood is not removed from them.

Chrys.: Observe here the infatuation of the Jews; their headlong haste, and destructive passions will not let them see what they ought to see, and they curse themselves, saying, “His blood be upon us,” and even entail the curse upon their children. Yet a merciful God did not ratify this sentence, but accepted such of them and of their children as repented; for Paul was of them, and many thousands of those who in Jerusalem believed.

Leo, Serm., 59, 2: The impiety of the Jews then [p. 944] exceeded the fault of Pilate; but he was not guiltless, seeing he resigned his own jurisdiction, and acquiesced in the injustice of others.

Jerome: It should be known that Pilate administered the Roman law, which enacted that every one who was crucified should first be scourged. Jesus then is given up to the soldiers to be beaten, and they tore with whips that most holy body and capacious bosom of God.

Chrys., Hom. iii, in Caena Dom.: See the Lord is made ready for the scourge, see now it descends upon Him! That sacred skin is torn by the fury of the rods; the cruel might of repeated blows lacerates His shoulders. Ah me! God is stretched out before man, and He, in whom not one trace of sin can be discerned, suffers punishment as a malefactor.

Jerome: This was done that we might be delivered from those stripes of which it is said, “Many stripes shall be to the wicked.” [Ps 32:10] Also in the washing of Pilate’s hands all the works of the Gentiles are cleansed, and we are acquitted of all share in the impiety of the Jews.

Hilary: At the desire of the Priests the populace chose Barabbas, which is interpreted ‘the son of a Father,’ thus shadowing forth the unbelief to come when Antichrist the son of sin should be preferred to Christ.

Raban.: Barabbas also, who headed a sedition among the people, is released to the Jews, that is the Devil, who to this day reigns among them, so that they cannot have peace

Great Commentary of Cornelius a Lapide

Ver. 24. When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude. α̉πενίψατο, washed away. “He adopted,” says Origen, “the Jewish custom, and wished to calm them down, not by words only, but also by deed.” He washed his hands, but not his conscience. But this took place after the scourging and crowning, of Christ. (See S. John.)   

Here is a transposition.

Saying, I am innocent

I condemn Him against my will. Ye are the offenders. Ye are guilty of His death. How foolish was this timid, heartless, and slothful Governor in speaking thus! Why opposest thou not the injustice of the people? “Seek not to be judge, if thou canst not by thy power break through iniquities” (Eccles. vii. 6). At another time thou didst let loose the soldiers an the riotous mob (Joseph. B. J., xviii. 4). Why dost thou not act thus firmly now? If thou canst not, through the fury of the Jews, set Him free now, at least delay thy sentence till their fury subsides.

S. Chrysostom (in Luke xxiii. 22) says, “Though he washed his hands, and said he was innocent, yet his permitting it was a sign of weakness and cowardice. For he ought never to have yielded Him up, but rather rescued Him, as the Centurion S. Paul” (Acts xxi. 33). S. Augustine more forcibly (Serm. cxviii. de Temp.) “Though Pilate washed his hands, yet he washed not away his guilt; for though he thought he was washing away the Blood of that Just One from his limbs, yet was his mind still stained with it. It was he, in fact, who slew Christ by giving Him up to he slain. For a firm and good judge should not condemn innocent blood, either through fear or the risk of being unpopular.” And S. Leo (Serm. viii. de Pass.) said, “Pilate did not escape guilt, for by siding with the turbulent mob he became partner of others’ guilt.”


Ver. 25. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Let the guilt thou fearest be transferred from thee to us. If there be any guilt, may we and our posterity atone for it. But we do not acknowledge any guilt, and consequently, as not fearing any punishment, we boldly call it down on ourselves. And thus have they subjected not only themselves, but their very latest descendants, to God’s displeasure. They feel it indeed even to this day in its full force, in being scattered over all the world, without a city, or temple, or sacrifice, or priest, or prince, and being a subject race in all countries. It was, too, in punishment for Christ’s crucifixion that Titus ordered five hundred Jews to be crucified every day at the siege of Jerusalem, as they crowded out of the city in search of food, “so that at last there was no room for the crosses, and no crosses for the bodies” (Joseph. B. J. vi. 12). “This curse,” says Jerome, “rests on them even to this day, and the blood of the Lord is not taken away from them,” as Daniel foretold (ix. 27).

Strange stories are told by Cardinal Hugo of special diseases which attacked the Jews, in periodical loss of blood, etc., though Salmeron and Abulensis [Tostatus] attribute them to natural causes.

Ver. 26. Then (when the Jews had taken on themselves the guilt of Christ’s death) released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified. S. Matthew, as usual, slightly touches on the scourging; S. Mark and S. Luke speak of it more fully, and reckon this as Pilate’s fifth appeal to the compassion of the Jews, to induce them to ask for His life.

Observe—1. Scourging among the Romans was the punishment of slaves. (See Ff de Pænis 1. “Servorum,” and the Lex Sempronia.) S. Paul, as a Roman citizen, protested against being scourged (Acts xvi.). Martyrs were scourged by way of disgrace, of which many instances are given. 2. Free persons also were scourged after they had been condemned to death, as though they had thus become slaves. Hence the fasces had rods for scourging, and the axe for executions. 3. This scourging of Christ was before His condemnation, and He was thus spared the usual scourging afterwards. For one scourging only is spoken of in the Gospels. 4. S. Jerome (Epitaph. Paulæ), S. Paulinus (Ep. xxxiv.), Prudentius, and others (see Gretser, de Cruce, Lib. i.), say that Christ was fastened to a column to be scourged, and that this column was afterwards placed in the Church of S. Praxedes at Rome. But the column which is there is very small, and is consequently supposed to be only a part of the large column mentioned by S. Jerome. Bosius maintains that it is the whole of the column, and that S. Jerome is speaking of the column at which Christ was first scourged. S. Chrysostom considered that there were two scourgings. But most probably it was only part of the column S. Jerome mentions, or one of those to which He was bound in the house of Caiaphas, and the larger one that at which He was scourged in the house of the Governor.
But in what respects was this scourging so cruel and savage?

1. Christ being bound to this short column, and standing with the whole height of His body above it, was quite at the mercy of those who scourged Him. Again, the mere exposure of His most pure and virgin body to these filthy mockers was a sore affliction to Him. But He was twice, or as some say thrice, stripped; first, at His scourging; secondly, when crowned with thorns. This stripping was attended with the greatest pain; for as His garment stuck to His wounds, they were forcibly reopened as it was torn away.

The forty martyrs were animated by this example, when they boldly stripped themselves and plunged into the freezing water. (See S. Basil’s Homily.)

2. Pilate wished to excite the compassion of the Jews by saying, “Behold the man.” Behold Him who has no longer the appearance of a man, but of some slaughtered animal, so besmeared was He with blood and marred in His form.

3. The soldiers had of their own wanton cruelty crowned Him with thorns, and perhaps had been bribed by the Jews to scourge Him with greater severity. The blessed Magdalene of Pazzi, a nun of Florence, saw in a trance Christ scourged by thirty pairs of men, one after the other. Some say that He had 5000 blows inflicted on Him. S. Bridget is said to have had the exact number (5475) revealed to her. From such a scourging as this He would have died naturally again and again, had not His Godhead specially sustained Him.

4. His bodily frame was most delicate, and acutely sensitive to pain, as fashioned by the Holy Spirit, and He consequently felt the scourging more severely than we should have done.

5. The prophets, and also Christ Himself, foretold that this scourging would be most heavy and severe. See S. Matt. xx. 19, and Job xvi. 14, “He brake Me with wound upon wound.” They added, i.e., blows to blows, wounds to wounds, so that the whole body seemed one continuous wound. Conf. Ps. lxxiii. 14, “All the day long have I been scourged;” and Ps. cxxix. 3, “The sinners wrought upon my back as smiths on an anvil;” but the Hebrew [and A.V.], “The ploughers ploughed upon My back,” they made furrows on My back with scourges. So, too, Aquila and Theodot. This is also indicated by Jacob’s words (Gen. xlix. 11), “He shall wash His garments in wine, and His clothes in the blood of the grape,” meaning by His garments and clothes His flesh, and by the wine His blood.

6. Christ was scourged, as slaves were, with small ropes or thongs. Some suppose that He was scourged: 1. with rods of thorns; 2. with cords and iron goads; 3. with chains made of hooks. Antonius Gallus (de Cruciatu Martyrum) describes the various kinds of scourges which were used.

S. Bridget says that the Blessed Virgin was present at the scourging, and that her pain and sorrow added wondrously to His. She describes also the mode and the barbarity of His scourging (S. Bridget, Rev. i. 10).

Now Christ wished in this way to atone for our evil lusts and manifold sins. And in doing this (says S. Thom., par. iii. sec. 46, art. 6, ad. 6), He considered not only the great virtue of His sufferings from the union of His Godhead with His human nature, but also how much it would avail even in that nature for making satisfaction. Moreover, He wished to obtain power and strength for all martyrs, in order to their enduring every kind of scourging. Conf. Isa. liii. 5. In all this Christ manifested most marvellous patience. He uttered not a groan, gave no indication of pain, stood firm as a rock. Nay, He lorded it over all sufferings, as being above them. Such a temper obtained heathen admiration. S. Cyprian (de Bono Patient. cap. iii.), among the proofs of His Divine Majesty, speaks of “His continuous endurance, in which He exhibited the patience of His Father.” 

Tertullian, too (de Pat. cap. iii.), “He who had proposed to hide Himself in man’s form, exhibited nought of man’s impatience. And in this ye Pharisees ought to have specially recognised the Lord.” S. Ambrose, too (Serm. xvii. in Ps. cxviii.) [cxix.], speaks of His “triumphant silence under calumny.” The Jews ought to have gathered from this the conclusion of the Centurion, “Truly this was the Son of God.” All this was caused by His love of God and man. Love triumphed over pain, and made His pains as nothing. And hence He was willing to suffer in all points, and in all His members and senses. S. Thomas (par iii. qu. 46, art. 5) thus writes, “He suffered in the desertion of His friends, in His credit, in His honour, in the spoiling of His goods, in His soul by sorrow, in His body by His wounds. He suffered too in all parts of His body, and in every sense.” But His sufferings of mind were by far the greatest. For He was specially wounded by the sins of each single man. He grieved also for the multitude of the lost. He had sympathy for the martyrs and others who had to endure sufferings. But His boundless love urged Him on to endure all this. For love is the measure of pain, and we cannot live in love without pain. Hence it is said of Christ, “Sculptured, thou seest His love in every limb.”

Verse 26- Delivered Him to be crucified.
After His scourging and crowning with thorns, which comes next, as I have said (ver. 24). This is therefore a transposition. S. Matthew here relates many things briefly, which S. John (xix. 1-16) records more fully. Pilate then delivered Jesus to the Jews, after he had condemned Him. Adrichomius (p. 163) gives Pilate’s supposed sentence, which states that the charges had been proved; making these charges, which he knew to be false, a cloak for his own sloth and injustice; the Chief Priests gave no proof, but merely made false and calumnious assertions.

Pilate in his rescript to Tiberius says that he had condemned Jesus through the importunity of the Jews, though He was in other respects a holy and divine man. Orosius (Hist. vii. 4) speaks of his testimony to Christ’s virtues; and Eusebius (in Chron. ad an. 38), that he spoke in favour of Christians to Tiberius, who proposed that Christianity should be recognised among other religions. (Conf. Tert. Apol. cap. 5 and 21; Eusebius, Hist. Eccl. ii. 2, and others.)

Christ, then, was on Pilate’s own testimony most unjustly condemned by him; for envy accused, hatred witnessed against Him; His crime was innocence; fear perverted judgment, ambition condemned, cruelty punished.